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 First Loss

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Nick_B
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PostSubject: First Loss   Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:49 am

Experienced my first loss  since getting back into the hobby. Lost my socolofi (pictured in my fish list) today (Sunday).  He appeared to be fine earlier today but when I went to check/feed tonight, he was floating.  If it's acceptable, I will post a picture.  It looks like the stomach is bloated/distended.  He was eating fine earlier, being somewhat aggressive as is normal for him, with no apparent issues.  I've read about Malawi bloat but thought it took much longer to lead to death and could potentially be cured in some cases.  I immediately checked all parameters and everything was within normal range for Malawi cichlids, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 15-25ppm Nitrate, 8.1 ph, 11-12 GH/KH.  I did a 50% water change yesterday (Sat.) and did remove my Yellow Blaze and put him in a 40g during PWC.  He did not seem to be eating.  Any advice or words of wisdom very much appreciated.  Really feeling bummed out tonight. pale

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:13 pm

Sorry to hear of your loss, we can all relate......

Is the Yellow Blaze showing any issues?

Malawi bloat is usually recognizable by the bloating and in my experiences the fish stops eating altogether for days - as you state it's not something that takes place in a day.

In a lot of cases it's difficult to pinpoint the root problem, I had the exact same situation with a Protomelas sp. "Steveni Taiwan" (Taiwanee Reef) a most beautiful, healthy fish, eating with fury and I come home one evening and he was dead. No pre signs of any health issues at all, I kinda think he was chased into the glass - I had several species of Protomelas and they did not at times play well together... That's all I could come up with.

At this point, I'd say to stay with your water changes and observe your fish carefully.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:37 pm

I haven't seen any issues with the yellow blaze other than not eating. It's there a certain type of food they prefer? I have Extreme cichlid pellets, NLS marine pellets, Omega veggie wagers, frozen shrimp, and a shrimp type pellet.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:09 pm

Only thing I can think of is maybe to much meat/protein? If it was your Mbuna that died. I would toss the shrimp an shrimp pellets if it was me. I am no expert though. I have been using NLS Cichlid formula,NLS Red, NLS Thera A, and some sinking NLS wafers. My treats for them are lettuce and sliced Cucumbers. I think you just started the Extreme, maybe the change caused a blockage. Hope all is well. I hate when this happens. I have read epson salt helps with bloat.
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:55 am

Sorry to hear about your fish lost. We all have suffered losses at some point. I guess it comes with the territory, but that doesn't make it any better. I hope you can figure out what happened...  Sad

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:54 pm

Sorry to hear of this, Nick.  Your socolofi was my favorite fish of the ones pictured in your fish list.  Sad

If you are comfortable posting a pic, please do that for the benefit of the thread.  It may help with diagnosis later.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:07 pm

Thanks. I will post one this evening when I get home.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:16 pm

Here's the picture...


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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Sun May 25, 2014 11:13 pm

Don't know what is going on, but since I first posted this thread, I've lost 6 more fish, bringing the count to 7. 4 mubunas, 3 peacocks.  I have set up two hospital tanks, one 10g, one 20g.  Moved the bi-color into one and flavescent into the other after observing they were not eating.  Same pattern as the peacocks that died.  Treating those tanks with metronidazole and feeding food medicated with metro to main tank.  The bi and flave. look healthy but still not eating.  I've ordered additional meds from National Fish Pharmacy but not sure how to proceed.  Suggestions?   Also added some Epson salt and raised temperature.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon May 26, 2014 8:55 am

Do you see any bloating or swelling around the anus BEFORE they die, or not until after death? Also look carefully for Camallanus (nematode) worms protruding from the anus of LIVE fish.
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon May 26, 2014 10:08 am

Gosh Nick what a nightmare. Hope you find a cure soon. Maybe start with basics. retest your water, stop feeding for 24 hours, do a large water change,raise temperature and add epson salt. I have had no luck with medication, seems to just kill fish. Maybe take pictures, and video of all your remaining fish so we can take a look. Also when did this all start? Was it right after a new fish addition? New Food? Water Change?
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Tue May 27, 2014 11:03 am

@Nick_B wrote:
Don't know what is going on, but since I first posted this thread, I've lost 6 more fish, bringing the count to 7. 4 mubunas, 3 peacocks.  I have set up two hospital tanks, one 10g, one 20g.  Moved the bi-color into one and flavescent into the other after observing they were not eating.  Same pattern as the peacocks that died.  Treating those tanks with metronidazole and feeding food medicated with metro to main tank.  The bi and flave. look healthy but still not eating.  I've ordered additional meds from National Fish Pharmacy but not sure how to proceed.  Suggestions?   Also added some Epson salt and raised temperature.

Sorry to hear about your continued losses. There's nothing wrong with using meds but lets also discuss the basics. Nick what are your tank water parameters and how frequently have you been performing partial water changes.  How long has this tank been running? Are you using water from your humidifier?  Neutral

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30 gal. Bare Bottom Adult Angelfish Tank
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed May 28, 2014 12:10 am

Sorry for the slow response. Spent my Memorial day running a chain saw at my dads, cutting down trees and blocking them out. Exhausting work, glad it's not my full-time job. What a memorable day for me.

Been performing 50% WC every 7 - 10 days.  Had LFS double-check my test.  Ammonia, Nitrite 0ppm;  Nitrate 15 - 25 ppm.  Haven't used water from dehumidifier in this tank.  It was the first tank I set up back in February.  Started back on 4/28.  The Jewel cichlids were pulled from this tank and put into a 40g tank during this time when fry were born.  No symptoms in them ever presented.

No worms ever seen.  My original mbunas from LFS were eating up until the day they died.  They did appear a little swollen but I thought bloat took longer to lead to death.  The peacocks that died stopped eating.  They were some of the smaller ones received in my last purchase.

On a positive note (?), the bi-color will now attempt to take food.  He does spit it back out but I noticed that some is eaten by morning.  The Flavescent also appears to be eating a little.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed May 28, 2014 10:55 am

Praziquantel + Metronidazole might be worth a try. "Usually" bloated fish do appear bloated and lose appetite for a few days to a couple weeks before they die, but "bloat" is not just one disease -- it's a symptom with many different causes - some infectious, some not infectious. This does sound like an infectious disease problem, since more fish are dying despite good care and water quality, as far as we know.
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed May 28, 2014 3:38 pm

It sounds like your tank may be starting to turn the corner. I hope that happens for you. I'm among the first to admit that I'm no expert on fish diseases and appropriate medications. Most infectious diseases are opportunistic and require a compromised immune system to attack... Neutral

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30 gal. Bare Bottom Adult Angelfish Tank
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Wed May 28, 2014 5:25 pm

Very true ... for the first to get sick. But once one fish is overwhelmed with infectious bacteria or parasites and shedding large numbers of them into the tank, it becomes easier for them to overpower healthy fishes' immune systems too.

@JohnnyAMH wrote:
Most infectious diseases are opportunistic and require a compromised immune system to attack... Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Thu May 29, 2014 6:49 am

Thanks for the advice and help. I'm at the 10 day mark with the two hospital tanks and Metro treatment. I do have some other meds that are suppposed to be shipping. I may just keep the bi-color and flavescent in them for a few more days.

In the main tank, the yellow blaze is starting to take interest in food again. But, he seems to spit out everything thing. I've bought several small sizes of pelletized foods...Omega, NLS both marine and freshwater, Omega super color and he tries them all but always spits out, even my main pellet, Extreme.

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Thu May 29, 2014 9:53 pm

Spoke too soon, the yellow hap didn't make it, but he had been struggling almost from the day I received him. Next purchase, I am definitely quarantining for an extended time, and if the fish are smaller, I may keep in a 55g until they get bigger. Any suggestions as to the medication that is best used in a quarantine tank? I have some Nitrofuracin Green on the way from National Fish Pharmacy (http://www.nationalfishpharm.com) at their recommendation for new fish in a quarantine tank. It's their "special formulation of Nitrofurazone, Sulfathiazole Sodium, Methylene Blue and sodium chloride".

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Thu May 29, 2014 11:34 pm

@gerald wrote:
Very true ... for the first to get sick.  But once one fish is overwhelmed with infectious bacteria or parasites and shedding large numbers of them into the tank, it becomes easier for them to overpower healthy fishes' immune systems too.  

@JohnnyAMH wrote:
Most infectious diseases are opportunistic and require a compromised immune system to attack... Neutral

Actually, all the fish in a tank are exposed to the same environment and are subject to the same consequences as the first fish to get sick. Some individuals may be more susceptible than others and may express illness first. One sick fish in a tank is reason enough for concern for all the fish in that tank. Infectious bacteria and parasites are most likely present in all tanks, all the time. It is a healthy fish immune system that protects them. Tank to tank contamination is possible of course but it does not necessarily result in deaths. If one fish immune system is compromised it is likely that other fish in that tank have compromised immune systems. Similarly, most of us apply similar husbandry to each of our tanks and more than one tank can become involved.  Most of the time, newly added fish are more susceptible to infection than their older tank mates who have developed antibodies to protect themselves. All that being said, there are always exceptions to every circumstance...  Rolling Eyes

@Nick_B wrote:
Spoke too soon, the yellow hap didn't make it, but he had been struggling almost from the day I received him.  Next purchase, I am definitely quarantining for an extended time, and if the fish are smaller, I may keep in a 55g until they get bigger.  Any suggestions as to the medication that is best used in a quarantine tank?  I have some Nitrofuracin Green on the way from National Fish Pharmacy (http://www.nationalfishpharm.com) at their recommendation for new fish in a quarantine tank.  It's their "special formulation of Nitrofurazone, Sulfathiazole Sodium, Methylene Blue and sodium chloride".

Nick, I feel your pain. I'm not up on meds and so sorry I can't suggest a cure. What else have you been doing besides trying meds? Sad

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30 gal. Bare Bottom Adult Angelfish Tank
20 gal. Bare Bottom Angelfish Breeder Tank
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Fri May 30, 2014 9:40 am

Agree totally. I was thinking about newly-imported-fish, old-age-fish, picked-on-fish, just-gave-birth-fish, not-getting-proper-diet-fish (e.g. herbivore in a tank with carnivores) or similar reasons why one fish in a tank might have weaker disease resistance than the rest, and could become a disease-breeding factory for pathogens already living in the tank that weren't causing any health problems previously.

@JohnnyAMH wrote:

Actually, all the fish in a tank are exposed to the same environment and are subject to the same consequences as the first fish to get sick. Some individuals may be more susceptible than others and may express illness first. One sick fish in a tank is reason enough for concern for all the fish in that tank. Infectious bacteria and parasites are most likely present in all tanks, all the time. It is a healthy fish immune system that protects them. Tank to tank contamination is possible of course but it does not necessarily result in deaths. If one fish immune system is compromised it is likely that other fish in that tank have compromised immune systems. Similarly, most of us apply similar husbandry to each of our tanks and more than one tank can become involved.  Most of the time, newly added fish are more susceptible to infection than their older tank mates who have developed antibodies to protect themselves. All that being said, there are always exceptions to every circumstance...  Rolling Eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:54 pm

I've raised the temp. in the two hospital tanks and have added some Epsom salt. There seems to be some controversy surrounding the addition of Epsom.

The issue of cross-contamination.... I think I am like most and do not have multiple sets of nets. Is there a good disinfectant dip that can be kept indefinitely?

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:00 pm

A strong salt solution will probably do the trick on most freshwater pathogens.
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:06 pm

I find it convenient to use hot tap water to rinse my nets before most use...  Wink

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30 gal. Bare Bottom Adult Angelfish Tank
20 gal. Bare Bottom Angelfish Breeder Tank
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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:38 pm

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PostSubject: Re: First Loss   Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:44 am

Nick, how did things ultimately turn out for you?  How are things going now?  

@Nick_B wrote:
The issue of cross-contamination....  I think I am like most and do not have multiple sets of nets.   Is there a good disinfectant dip that can be kept indefinitely?
 
A good oxidizer, like Potassium permanganate, is good to keep around for quick, mild disinfection.  JUNGLE Laboratories makes a product called Clear Water.  It comes in small or larger bottles and is basically dilute Potassium permanganate (KMnO4).

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