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 Come on lets get some real debate going here.

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KGTropicals
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PostSubject: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Wed May 09, 2012 7:57 am

First topic message reminder :

Is it just me or has this forum slowed down? Where is everyone? Well I've got a good topic that maybe can get some good debate going. Hybrids.

My opinion, I'm so glad you asked. Hybrid Africans are gorgeous fish, they have wonderful personalities (most) and the mystery of how they are gonna color up is always fun to watch. We have a breeder colony of hybrids that we hand selected from our stock and they produce some absolute show stoppers.
Now for those who dont like them, I know your out there. My question is why? Most who don't like them are wanabe tree huggers who look at everything as black and white, they use words like unpure and unatural when they describe hybrids, are you delusional enough to believe hybrids don't occur in the wild? These same people probably go home and admire there flowerhorns and blood parrots and talk about what a shame it is that people allow there African cichlids to cross breed and desicrate the purity of the strains. Come on.
Again this is just my opinion, not trying to offend anyone, just trying to get some discussion goin :afro:
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KGTropicals
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue May 15, 2012 6:22 pm

What a party pooper!!!
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Flippercon
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue May 15, 2012 7:30 pm

mpowers wrote:
I just don't want to reach a point some day where someone from big brother says, you can't have cichlids from africa or south america as they are an invasive species (whether cross breed or not).

That would suck, but that means there would be cichlids on the black market and we would all be rich! We could sell rare convicts and such... Laughing
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KGTropicals
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue May 15, 2012 7:44 pm

Pssssst hey come here I got what you need.
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mpowers
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Wed May 16, 2012 11:40 am

Laughing
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Liz
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 pm

I personally don't have a problem with hybrids, as I'm just not understanding how it is tearing apart our world. As mentioned above I know of several people who feel VERY strongly about them, even to the point of not associating with those who keep hybrids, and I can't get all worked up about it. Maybe I'm missing something.....

Africans, in particular, have been cross-bred for so long that you always have to be on the lookout, but I think that happens in the wild as well. As long as people are honest about what they've got it's fine, but it can be tricky, especially since some juvenile African cichlids can resemble other species, or just be hard to ID until they mature.

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Donald
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Sun May 20, 2012 8:56 pm

I think Lake Victoria cichlid hybrids should be avoid because of their endangered status. I don't care for Flowerhorns or Parrot Cichlids not because of hybridization but because I think they are butt ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

What about fish that are selectively bred to bring out certain attributes? Albinos? Look at the different Rams. Gold, Blue, Long Fin, butt ugly Balloon Rams, etc. I have Apistogramma cacatuoides "Double Red"s. Charming little fish.

Here is another can of worms for you. I took some fish off the hands of a friend who had to break down their setup. A couple of them turned out to be dyed white tetras...from a local Walmart. I thought that abomination was illegal. Stupid me.

I feel dirty now. I think I'll go out and hug my favorite tree.

I forgot about Glofish. They are illegal to possess in New Zealand.
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ianjones
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:26 pm

i like this thread! kudos! the naturalists and i always find ourselves at odds, although i always think we are on the same side. i dont believe in the argument of "man-made vs natural." i ignore it altogether. humans are a natural occurence. when we made our houses out of sticks and stones, it was a natural occurence, if only by proxy. and now that we make our buildings out of mortar and concrete, its still a natural occurence. it is merely a by-product of a naturally occuring mammal (much like a beaver dam is a by-product of a naturally occuring beaver) whose species happens to be doing very well in this era of earths history. evolution dictates that we will not be the dominant species but for so long so enjoy it while it lasts. whittling away your time with the belief that we are an intrusion seems like such a waste of life to me.

i find science far more challenging and interesting than the naturalist point of view. and i adore change. i love the new challenges that it provides us with and the constant dynamic life that it bestows upon us. so, in owning a fishtank, science and change are what i strive for. i like to find the things that most people say cant be done and try them. i like to hear that you cant keep this fish with that, or that this fish cant be acclimatized to these water conditions, or that this fish cant be bred in captivity.

a lot of aquarists despise seeing someone like me in the hobby, and ive learned to be ok with that. im very sociopathic when it comes to my fish...ive also been told very similar things about my interactions with people though, so it comes honestly lol. im not a pet owner. in fact, it was very odd to me when my gf started naming my fish because the idea had never occured to me in all my years as an enthusiast. when i go to the fish store, im not there to purchase fish or pets. im there to purchase very pretty, overpriced, aquatic lab rats. a lot of the times, i just want to observe behaviours under an array of different environment specifics, much like my interest in humans. but who knows what kind of project is going to motivate me next.

genetics is probably my biggest interest in all of science, and i read plenty about it. im not a huge fan of fish injected with dye or hormones because it is false advertising...and it is not a very special accomplishment from where i sit. however, the person who decided to inject danios and tetras with sea anenome dna is my hero! they even pass their colors on to the next generation. wowwwww! that is low-level gene splicing. i wish i had sea anenome dna! to me, hybridization is akin to watching evolution take place right in your very own fishtank. and if you happen to breed a cichlid with a human thumb protruding from its forehead, i want to be the first to know, cuz you are going to be my new hero Wink

if i selectively breed from genetic mutations, then no, i do not have a new species right off the bat. after a few generations, though, yes i do. betta splendens is a good example. however, if i hybridize two fish and the hybrid has not yet been documented, then yes, i have assited in instantly creating a new species, with all certainty, and will be very proud. if i give extras of that species to my LFS and they sell it to you labeled as a goldfish, i cant find one single way in which i am responsible for that. and, i will assure you that, without a doubt, they will mislabel fish whether hybrids exist or not. they are your LFS. its what they do. furthermore, if they release those hybrids into the wild and they change the ecosystem, im also not responsible for that...although ill be routing for my Ian Cichlids way before i route for anyone's fear of change.

in finality, all lake malawi cichlids have one species of cichlid as a common ancestor. long ago, climate conditions drained the lake a little, and the hump in the middle divided it into 2 lakes. evolution took place over thousands of years and several different species formed in either lake. then the water level rose again and the lakes combined. each new species developed very dramatic ways of procuring their survival. this makes them all very fun to watch. it also makes them all easy to hybridize because...well...i think everyone knows which toilet that gets flushed down Smile
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Robby
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:34 pm

ans its wierd because fish are considered "crappy hybrids" when they are morphed together but in ball pythons people purposely do this to create what they call "designer morphs", which can run anywhere from 200-65,000!!! i still think fish hybrids look sweet Smile !
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KGTropicals
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:22 pm

WOW, all I can say about your post Ian is bravo my friend, bravo cheers
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koolaid68
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:33 pm

Ian aka :crazy: Dr. Fishenstein ThumbsUp I enjoyed reading your post!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:36 am

haha guess im not as hated in the hobby as i thought. i would like to say that i bare no malicious intent to my fish, but sometimes fish stress is an unintended, yet anticipated, part of what i am striving for. the project im on now has turned out to be very fish-friendly and i think ive only lost 2 or 3 fish so far, but only one of those is believed to be from something i did.

robby, did you say $65000 for a snake?? ugh im in the wrong friggin business lol
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:29 am

Yes Ian we are in the wrong business. I know a few people making MAD Money doing the snake thing. I would get into it myself but I have 2 problems. 1. My wife hate snakes. 2. I hate snakes too. I guess its hard to make money that way huh!!
lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:53 am

I'm with you Koolaid

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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:12 pm

i dated a girl back in hs that had a pet red-tail boa. when she went off to W&M, they wouldnt let her keep the thing, so i ended up with this ignorant snake that spent most of its waking hours biting and/or trying to strangle me. it knocked the heat lamp off the top of its cage and burnt a hole in the carpet. the only rewarding part of having it was feeding it. i fed it 2 mice every week and it was hilarious. they didnt even know he was in there...til he snatched the first one up. then the 2nd one would spend the last 10min of its life screaming and jumping against the glass while the snake swallowed its sibling whole. im not a big fan of fish that look like snakes either. they freak me out...
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PostSubject: Re: Come on lets get some real debate going here.   Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:35 pm

My mle spider has a mustache!!! Smile


and some pics i've edited Smile
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