Central Virginia Aquarium Support

Central Virginia Aquarium Support is a discussion and help group for aquarium hobbyists, newcomer to advanced!
 
HomePortalCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in
... Welcome to Central Virginia Aquarium Support! ... ... Here you can discuss anything aquarium related - meet interesting folks - find equipment and trade fish! ... ... "What's Going On?" Click for a list of Local Meetings and Events ... ... *Latest fish article!* Figure-8 Puffer Article ... ... *Latest plants article!* Dwarf Hygro Article ... ... MEMBERS SHOWCASE see The HOME Page! ...

Share | 
 

 Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:25 pm

It looks like someone sanded the front of his mouth off. He is interested in any type of food I offer him but he doesn't eat. I've seen a similar condition in tetras (serpaes and neons) I have had before but they died before I could even think about treating them.

All the parameters are good. The aquarium has been up and running for several years with no real problems.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:08 am

Never mind.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Liz
SupportTeam
avatar

Posts : 1215
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Glen Allen, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:09 pm

What happened? Did you lose him?

_________________
My Blog
My Youtube Channel
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:43 pm

No. I decided to treat the aquarium with kanamycin (Seachem's Kanaplex). Yesterday evening I posted my question before remembering I had some of it on hand. He had been eating less but last night the injury seem like it appeared out of nowhere. The female and corys are fine. So strange. Hopefully the Kanaplex will work. Thought about using Pimafix and/ Melafix. So much confusing info on the internet.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deb
Administrator
avatar

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Richmond, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:24 pm

That's true. I tried to look this up yesterday and found myself on The Krib, which is one of the oldest sites out there and very much geared to the serious hobbyist. All the old, original cichlid gang used to go there so I checked it out. Basically, all the treatments you have mentioned are mentioned on there, with perhaps a variation in brand name. From the way you describe the presentation the only thing that I've seen that's similar is an advanced stage of barbel erosion in Corydoras, except with that you also usually get lots of fuzzy mouth fungus, too. Sorry I can't help but if you have used Kanaplex in the past and it was tolerated well, then it's probably as good as anything to try. My personal preference would have been for the Melafix first, then advancing to Pimafix if needed. I agree, it's confusing.

One thing which was suggested but which I would NOT use is a salt solution, as this will not be tolerated well by the corys or the plants.

_________________
My Tanks. 
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cvas.forumotion.com/portal
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Just checked on him. Other that his mouth, he looks great. I'm not big on antibiotics, so Melafix it is. I don't think one dose of Kanaplex will matter one way or the other. Gutted the long exhausted carbon from the filter pads for good measure and turned the heater down to 75. That is supposed to slow the growth of the infection.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:28 pm

He is now picking up pieces of substrate (Fluorite) at feeding time. I am going to see if he"ll take some NLS pellets, if the corys don't get to them first.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Liz
SupportTeam
avatar

Posts : 1215
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Glen Allen, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:15 pm

I think this is an appropriate approach, and since he's not acting ill treating the wound with Melafix to prevent secondary infection is the way to go to protect the general health of the entire tank - you've got an ecosystem there with the plants and the other fish to consider.

Antibiotics might be good if you planned on putting him in a hospital tank, but honestly sometimes you have to weigh the stress on the fish of being moved, being medicated, being ill, expense of maintaining additional tank, plus expense of meds, etc., against the potential good.

I'm impressed that he's poking around in this way, so fingers are crossed!

_________________
My Blog
My Youtube Channel
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:10 pm

An ecosystem approach, good thinking Liz.

I always feel guilty for not having a hospital tank when something like this happens. I never thought about the cons. I should have a quarantine setup. Knowing me, I would turn it into something else especially since I have taken an interest in killifish.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Liz
SupportTeam
avatar

Posts : 1215
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Glen Allen, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:17 pm

@Donald wrote:
Knowing me, I would turn it into something else especially since I have taken an interest in killifish.

That's exactly what happens to me!

_________________
My Blog
My Youtube Channel
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:15 pm

Now he can't hold his head off of the bottom. Not looking good.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:22 pm

Swim Bladder?

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deb
Administrator
avatar

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Richmond, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:56 pm

Have you had a look at his lateral line? I'm more inclined to think it's related to HLLE than to swim bladder but it may all be related. If there is erosion along the lateral line, if it appears sunken, these would be clues. Unfortunately, I'm not sure anything can be done in that case.

_________________
My Tanks. 
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cvas.forumotion.com/portal
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:40 pm

We took him out last night (of course I forgot to take pics) and examined him closely. His mouth is much better but the mouth is open an the eyes appear to be slightly protruding. I thought about euthanizing him but my gut feeling told me to return him to the aquarium since he otherwise looked fine. I'll get him back out and look at the lateral line. What is HLLE?

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deb
Administrator
avatar

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Richmond, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:14 pm

I'm sorry, it's Head and Lateral Line Erosion. You may also see it called hole-in-the-head disease (HITH). It's fairly common among cichlids but little seems to be known about it. Usually, there is deterioration on or near the lateral line (the row of what looks like little holes which runs the length of a fish's body) and often the head seems to be collapsing inward, from the top down. There will be pitted depressions and erosion. It does not always present the same way but the same areas are affected. I just wondered because a blunted off mouth could be eroded away, but you are the one to make the call on that. Once a fish starts going downhill they present with all kinds of symptoms and it's the wise man who knows how to diagnose the problem or how to treat it. At this point, if the mouth looks better but you see slightly protruding eyes, maybe the best thing is just to do another pwc.

_________________
My Tanks. 
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cvas.forumotion.com/portal
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:53 pm

After the 7 day course of treatment he is swimming normally, no visible signs of disease and has some interest in eating but could do much better. Most of the time he is in one of clay pots watching the world go by.

Did a water change and added carbon to my filters as instructed. How long should I leave the carbon? It's been 24 hours.

If he doesn't continue to improve should I run another course of treatment with Melafix? Pimafix? Both? Kanaplex? Well, I've ruled out Kanaplex, do not like antibiotics.

The water parameters are good. Nitrates are 40 ppm. That could be from an algae die off. Just added Phosban to my filters and the phosphate have been dramatically reduced. A lot of sludge came out during the water change. Total guess on my part.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Liz
SupportTeam
avatar

Posts : 1215
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Glen Allen, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:11 pm

For an ailing fish I'd really like to see the NO3 come way down.

I'd continue with the Melafix and Pimafix until you're sure he's back to his old self. They are antiseptic and won't mess with the biofilter, and can't really hurt anything.

_________________
My Blog
My Youtube Channel
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:57 am

Thanks for the advice. Round 2 here we come.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:17 pm

OK,

1st week - Melafix

2nd week - Melafix and Pimafix

3rd week - Melafix, Pimafix and Kanaplex (last dose tomorrow)

He eats frozen brine shrimp here and there. Mouth is still swollen. Swims backwards using pectoral fins a lot. Starting to look thin. Sits in a clay pot most of the time.

Any suggestions on what I should do next?


_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deb
Administrator
avatar

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Richmond, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:07 pm

How does he look? Is the situation with his mouth preventing him from eating?

Are the nitrates still at 40 ppm?

_________________
My Tanks. 
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cvas.forumotion.com/portal
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Nitrates are down, I forgot the number. Doing a WC tomorrow. Will check the water parameters afterwards.

His mouth looks swollen and his body thin. He eats sparingly. I got my hands on some fresh microworms today. Hopefully he will find them more interesting than the usual offerings.

My concern at this point is all the meds in water now. Based on what I've read, it is not recommended to dose more than one round of Kanaplex. Never mind the Melafix and Pimafix. I've got a well established ecosystem going here and having it crash would not make me a happy camper.

I've never had a fish ill this long before. They either got better or died. The situation presents quite a dilemma, Keep pouring meds in or remove him.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:48 pm

He passed on the microworms. The female and corys enjoyed them. Took him out for a few pics during the water change. I'll post one or two if they come out good. His eyes and mouth are still swollen. Right now he is sitting in a fry net breeder with a clump of Bolbitis. Going to check the water parameters and try to google up a plain of action that doesn't involve euthanization.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:15 pm

Maracyn Plus is allegedly biofilter and plant safe.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Deb
Administrator
avatar

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2012-02-04
Location : Richmond, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:14 pm

I think you can trust what they say. I read the readout - it sounds like it would treat the condition you describe. Of course, no one can predict the outcome of any treatment.

_________________
My Tanks. 
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://cvas.forumotion.com/portal
Donald
CVASMember


Posts : 504
Join date : 2012-05-18
Location : Midlothian, VA

PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:51 pm

I have to wait 24 hours for the carbon to clear the Kanaplex as I understand it. He is nose down and wobbling side to side in the breeder. Not good in my opinion.

Having to take into account the other fish, plants and nitrifying bacteria has been a limiting factor. I think he could benefit from a high dose of salt or even Epsom salts. I'm going to rethink the idea of having a little aquarium for such rare events.

_________________
study fish study
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?   

Back to top Go down
 

Male Apistogramma cacatuoides with blunted mouth?

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Central Virginia Aquarium Support :: Care and Reproduction :: Hospital-